11 replies to this topic

[Caveman]

Welcome to everyone as the Footscray Not Western Bulldogs (F.N.W.B.) Forum is open for business.

This is the place for all Footscray fans to discuss, question, seek information, reminisce and interact with other Footscray supporters.

So jump on board to continue the fight for the Footscray Football Club- the greatest club in the universe

CEDE NULLIS

[Lisbon]

I'm Portuguese and first and foremost a soccer fan, but also a fan of australian football. I came across this site by chance, but the fight to restore Footscray's true name really struck a chord with me.
Soccer and australian football may be different sports, but the more I learn about the latter, the more I think that the problems that are faced by ordinary fans of both games are quite alike and include rampant commercialism, the clubs' growing need to drown themselves in debt just to be able to compete, absurd over-hyping that leads to a sort of "plastic" environment surrounding games, an environment that no one would like to be a part of, a growing trend of thinking of the fans as "consumers" and nothing else, etc.
The saddest thing is that the change from Footscray to Western Bulldogs could only be the beginning. In Europe soccer clubs have already been forced to sell "naming rights" to sponsors, effectively adopting their sponsors' names. The most famous example is that of the Austrian club that was once Austria Salzburg (a.k.a. Casino Salzburg, Wüstenrot Salzburg, etc. - the names of former sponsors). The bloke from Red Bull bought the club, changed its name to Red Bull Salzburg, changed its colors from violet-white to red-white and called all fans who protested against this absolute rape "idiots", "stupid" and would probably have called them "stick-in-the-muds" if that expression existed in German. Fortunately, Europe's soccer reporters are traditionalists to a man and woman and the club is simply referred to as "Salzburg" or "RB Salzburg", the words "Red Bull" seldomly being used.
That fact that club grounds may be named after sponsors is now accepted (remember the debts), the fans being happy to call the ground by its original name (though its sad that, for instance, Hamburg's old Volksparkstadium - People's Park Stadium - must now be called AOL Arena), but we must draw the line somewhere.
So keep up the struggle. Change is necessary and we must accept that things never remain the same, hoping that changes will bring better times. But to change a club's name is absurd and lacks any valid motive. Moreover, if the change in the Club's name occurred under the circumstances described in this site (Mr. Smorgon claiming that the change would eliminate the reference to a supposedly under-priviledged, third-rate !?!?! town - is he still allowed to walk the streets of Footscray?), it was a despicable and uncalled for insult against Footscray, its Club, its People and all those who wore the jumper over the decades.
Don't give up your birthright.

[Caveman]

I'm Portuguese and first and foremost a soccer fan, but also a fan of australian football. I came across this site by chance, but the fight to restore Footscray's true name really struck a chord with me.
Soccer and australian football may be different sports, but the more I learn about the latter, the more I think that the problems that are faced by ordinary fans of both games are quite alike and include rampant commercialism, the clubs' growing need to drown themselves in debt just to be able to compete, absurd over-hyping that leads to a sort of "plastic" environment surrounding games, an environment that no one would like to be a part of, a growing trend of thinking of the fans as "consumers" and nothing else, etc.
The saddest thing is that the change from Footscray to Western Bulldogs could only be the beginning. In Europe soccer clubs have already been forced to sell "naming rights" to sponsors, effectively adopting their sponsors' names. The most famous example is that of the Austrian club that was once Austria Salzburg (a.k.a. Casino Salzburg, Wüstenrot Salzburg, etc. - the names of former sponsors). The bloke from Red Bull bought the club, changed its name to Red Bull Salzburg, changed its colors from violet-white to red-white and called all fans who protested against this absolute rape "idiots", "stupid" and would probably have called them "stick-in-the-muds" if that expression existed in German. Fortunately, Europe's soccer reporters are traditionalists to a man and woman and the club is simply referred to as "Salzburg" or "RB Salzburg", the words "Red Bull" seldomly being used.
That fact that club grounds may be named after sponsors is now accepted (remember the debts), the fans being happy to call the ground by its original name (though its sad that, for instance, Hamburg's old Volksparkstadium - People's Park Stadium - must now be called AOL Arena), but we must draw the line somewhere.
So keep up the struggle. Change is necessary and we must accept that things never remain the same, hoping that changes will bring better times. But to change a club's name is absurd and lacks any valid motive. Moreover, if the change in the Club's name occurred under the circumstances described in this site (Mr. Smorgon claiming that the change would eliminate the reference to a supposedly under-priviledged, third-rate !?!?! town - is he still allowed to walk the streets of Footscray?), it was a despicable and uncalled for insult against Footscray, its Club, its People and all those who wore the jumper over the decades.
Don't give up your birthright.

Well Lisbon that is a fantastic start to this Forum from you there.


I hear what you say about soccer(football) clubs in Europe.

There was the team Dynamo(spelling?) Zagreb- the President of Croatia had their name changed to Croatia Zagreb. I also recall Meadowbank Thistle in Scotland having their name altered to Livingstone which massively angered their fans.

Wimbledon moved away from South London and became the Milton Keynes Dons or as their expediently called the M.K.Dons. Some of the Wimbledon loyalists helped form a new club in the Wimbledon area though.

All in all in alienates supporters because we see our football (soccer) club as being a constant sense of stability in a world of change. If a brand of butter changes its name -no one cares we still buy the butter if it tastes alright. If another butter comes along and it tastes alright but is also cheaper, then we buy that second brand and think no more if at all about it.

Yet football is different- it is a culture something like your own name that you carry through with you from generation to the next generation(well literally if your male, although females understand what I mean) The point is that we need tradition- not just for the sake of tradition alone- but to connect us to the past and to where the future lies.

Western Bulldogs has no tradition or connection to anything because as a name it is meaningless. It is just a direction and the title of a particular breed of canine. North, south east and west mean nothing if there is not a place after or before it. Bulldogs is not a place, town, region, suburb,state or precinct- it is just an animal. Direction and canine- means purely nothing, represents nothing, stands for nothing and is ultimately nothing.

The President David Smogon has been in that position for now 11 seasons. He does not reside in Footscray the suburb or the western suburbs as an area. He lives in Toorak, which is probably Melbourne's richest suburb.

Now do I care that David Smorgon lives in the wealthy eastern suburb of Melbourne,Toorak and not Footscray or the wider western suburbs?

Answer is no, because it is none of my business where he lives and that nothing to do with me, he can live where he likes. Good luck to him for living in a nice comfortable suburb. The more Footscray supporters the better- from anywhere.

However it is an issue for me and others when he is responsible for changing the name of a football club from the suburb it has represented for around 125 years -to a meaningless name like Western Bulldogs when he has no tangible connection to Footscray the place. He doesn't reside here- but is happy to change the name away from a place that he has never lived in and then try with sadly a fair bit of success to eradicate Footscray the word by stealth from the football club.

Anyway well done Lisbon, and who is your team back in Portugal?- are you a Sporting Lisbon or Benfica fan? Or perhaps someone else? Look forward to hearing from you again.

[Lisbon]

I'm a Sporting fan, thanks for asking. By the way, today (July 1) is Sporting's 101st anniversary and I can proudly claim that someone in my family has been supporting the club since at least 1932, when my maternal grandfather started going to their matches as an eight year old.
The Dinamo (it's Dynamo in German or Russian, but Dinamo in Zagreb, pretty confusing, really) Zagreb name change you wrote about was one of the many sad tales of name changes forced on clubs by politicians. Dinamo's original name was eventually restored after Croatian President Tudjman's death, thanks to persistent campaigning by their fans. Mussolini also forced Milan and Genoa to ditch their English names and become plain old Milano and Genova. Milan's rivals Inter were forced to become Ambrosiana, as Internazionale reminded Mussolini of the Communist International. Altough they were facing a dictator, Inter's fans never caved in and eventually forced Mussolini to a compromise, under which the club was renamed Ambrosiana-Inter. Needless to say, all these clubs went back to their original names after Mussolini's fall.
The former GDR also subjected its clubs to a forced diet of relocations, name changes and mergers. Nonetheless, when their officials held a vote and allowed the fans of the East Berlin club traditionally known as "Union" to have a say about their club's name during its "re-foundation" in 1966 (the club's name had been changed several times since 1945 and it had been years since the Union name had been used), the fans made the only possible choice and FC Union Berlin was re-born.
The Wimbledon re-location you also wrote about was particularly painful because of the role the English Football Association played in it. The FA had the power to block the move, but ended up allowing it. Although fans are supposed to expect nothing from leagues and associations, the FA's decision was a horrible disappointment. The FA were, after all, the people who codified the sport, they created it, so to speak, and suddenly they went over to the dark side! It was worse than finding out Santa Claus doesn't exist - it was like finding out he does exist but is a drugs and arms dealer.
By the way, I hope the defeat against the "Universals" doesn't hurt Footscray's chances of making it to the finals too much. Here's hoping for a victory next week.

[Caveman]

You are privileged in Lisbon to have what would be one of the great derbies in world football between your club Sporting and Benfica.

Now that is a real derby- two clubs from the same city. That is why I can't have the Real Madrid v Barcelona game classified as the greatest derby in the world because it isn't a genuine derby. It is certainly a great fixture, bit if you call that a derby you may as well call Liverpool v Manchester United as a derby or ditto for either of those clubs playing a London team.


The points you have raised about certain European dictators and their role in attempting to impose their political idealogy on particular clubs is very interesting.

Steaua Bucharest were the Romanian army team and the first Eastern Bloc country to win the European Cup - in a penalty shootout against Barcelona back in 1986.

I am not very informed about American baseball. but there was a famous case where the Brooklyn Dodgers were taken away from New York to become the L.A. Dodgers. The owners of the club decided to move it from one side of the country to the other.

I imagine one of their arguments was that at least the club was still the dodgers- even if they now played out of California rather than New York.

This is a major component of my arguments against the Footscray name change. The people who decide and IMPLEMENT changing names seem to believe that the nickname is the be all and end all- well that definitely is NOT the case. Western Bulldogs means purely and utterly nothing- as does the team who defeated us last weekend- Kangaroos. They beat us comfortably did the "Universal Kangaroos" However how many people must have looked at the rostered draw and thought after seeing the fixture that involved eight Melbourne clubs


Essendon v Melbourne
St Kilda v Richmond
Kangaroos v Western Bulldogs
Hawthorn v Collingwood


just how completely ridiculous and childish the third of those four fixtures looks when compared with the three others games? That third named game trivialises those two clubs immediately. Someone could automatically assume that those two clubs are under age teams? Because that is what they sound like.

When will both club administrations wake up to this?

[max469]

Good to see the forum back up.

Love the new clips of the old players.

Good to see a new one of Geoff Jennings.

[Caveman]

No worries, one clip of Geoff Jennings has been somehow deleted and a new one added.

The deleted one was a goal against Collingwood at home in 1978. Will be getting that back asap. The new one was from the first Footscray MCG match I remember attending. That was in 1977- thirty years ago- we were leading comfortably but Richmond ran over us in the last quarter. It was on the replay that night and I couldn't initially fathom whilst watching the replay how Richmond were kicking to the left hand end in the last quarter when I recalled them kicking to the right hand end. Then someone pointed out that we were sitting on the other side of the ground in the outer somewhere near what is now M15 (or Bay 13 in the old MCG language)

So Richmond beat us that day, but we got some revenge defeating them later in the year at home.

Back to the temporarily deleted Jennings goal against Collingwood. That was as I mentioned above from 1978- possibly in my top ten most sickening days as a Footscray supporter. When I recently first saw highlights of that match for the first time in nearly 29 years - it brought back memories and I literally shuddered just recalling how shattered I was with that game- a memory I tried to forget but couldn't. We were 32 point s up at three quarter time and managed to fall apart in the last quarter and lose by under a goal.

The Gubby Allan / Simon Beasly game in 1984 exorcised a ghost for me 6 years later after Collingwood 1978.

[Amelia Jane]

Good to have the forum again.

[mighty_west]

It is great to have the forum back up once again.

Go Footscray!

[Lisbon]

You are privileged in Lisbon to have what would be one of the great derbies in world football between your club Sporting and Benfica.

Now that is a real derby- two clubs from the same city. That is why I can't have the Real Madrid v Barcelona game classified as the greatest derby in the world because it isn't a genuine derby. It is certainly a great fixture, bit if you call that a derby you may as well call Liverpool v Manchester United as a derby or ditto for either of those clubs playing a London team.


The points you have raised about certain European dictators and their role in attempting to impose their political idealogy on particular clubs is very interesting.

Steaua Bucharest were the Romanian army team and the first Eastern Bloc country to win the European Cup - in a penalty shootout against Barcelona back in 1986.

I am not very informed about American baseball. but there was a famous case where the Brooklyn Dodgers were taken away from New York to become the L.A. Dodgers. The owners of the club decided to move it from one side of the country to the other.

I imagine one of their arguments was that at least the club was still the dodgers- even if they now played out of California rather than New York.

This is a major component of my arguments against the Footscray name change. The people who decide and IMPLEMENT changing names seem to believe that the nickname is the be all and end all- well that definitely is NOT the case. Western Bulldogs means purely and utterly nothing- as does the team who defeated us last weekend- Kangaroos. They beat us comfortably did the "Universal Kangaroos" However how many people must have looked at the rostered draw and thought after seeing the fixture that involved eight Melbourne clubs


Essendon v Melbourne
St Kilda v Richmond
Kangaroos v Western Bulldogs
Hawthorn v Collingwood


just how completely ridiculous and childish the third of those four fixtures looks when compared with the three others games? That third named game trivialises those two clubs immediately. Someone could automatically assume that those two clubs are under age teams? Because that is what they sound like.

When will both club administrations wake up to this?

Sporting v Benfica is indeed a great game and it's the one I most look forward to/dread all season. Nothing like the good old derby - and I agree that a "derby" is a game between two teams of the same city. Lisbon on a derby day, it's absolutely brilliant.

When I started to take an interest in the AFL I thought that the "Western Bulldogs" were a Western Australia team. Then I learned they had previously been known as Footscray and so I thought the team had moved from Footscray to Western Australia. Then I learned they hadn't gone anywhere and so I thought why change the name? Of course I didn't know that Hawthorn or St.Kilda were Melbourne suburbs, but at least I was able to guess the names of the places those teams came from. Using team nicknames does sound odd - I wouldn't have Lions v Eagles instead of Sporting v Benfica, that's for sure.

[Caveman]

That is understandably what many people would initially believe- that Western Bulldogs are from Western Australia- not from the extreme eastern state Victoria and from Melbourne which is in the south centre of the state of Victoria.

If it was for example the Western Melbourne Bulldogs- that would give some some clues that the club is representing the western suburbs of Melbourne- as much as I would despise that name as well, but it would mean something. Western Bulldogs represents nothing- four blokes changed our 100 + years of age clubs name on the basis of the theory of one obscure marketing consultant. Wonder if that marketing bloke changed his team from Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon, Geelong, Hawthorn, Richmond etc etc to become a passionate supporter of the Western Bulldogs?

One of the great scandals in Australian rules football- yet these days(well since the end of 1997 when the issue of voting for the name was so amazingly railroaded) the mainstream football media in Victoria has no interest in this issue anymore. Some old player from the 1954 Grand Final have died since 1996 and they are usually described as a Western Bulldogs Premiership Player!

[max469]

Yes, remember that game against Richmond. How can we not remember.


Love any clips with Geoff - don't see to much with him these days.

Thanks again